First, I disagree on applying the warlock principal to psionics as a solid measure because the differences in augmentation system and the spell slot system invalidate the transfer of the fundamental assumption the warlock principal uses as its basis, namely:
Quote:Originally Posted by Kuraito
The Warlock Principle says that after around 5th level, a spellcaster has more then enough spell slots to last him the day
The difference being that under the augmentation system increased cost equates to increased effect, where with spell slots increased caster level equates to increased effect. To transfer the daily allotment of spell slots into a power point equivalent will show them to be approximately the same:
For reference, a 5th level wizard with an 18 intelligence score (starting at 15, +1 for level and +2 for a headband) has 4/4/3/2 for spell slots, which if you translate directly spell slot cost to power points is 25 power points, or if you take total spell levels and convert them at a rate of 2 power points to one spell level is 36 power points, a 5th level psion with an 18 intellgience has 35 power points. The psion has a slight edge over the wizard in this department, depending on how you do your accounting, and is a way behind the sorcerer at even levels, and close to them at odd because of the one level delayed spell level access.
So in those terms they are the same, however, when you look at the effect of those resources you'll see that the wizard has a decided advantage. Using damage as a comparative factor (and only because it is a numerical and thus quantifiable comparison) a wizard can use his 0th level slots for acid splash and 1d3, 1st level spell slots for shocking grasp and 5d6 damage, 2nd level slots for scorching ray and 4d6 damage, and 3rd level slots for fireball and 5d6 damage. Taking into a count all of his spell slots, his total effect in damage over a day is 4d3 for 0ths, 20d6 for 1sts, 12d6 for 2nds, and 10d6 for 3rds, grand total of 4d3+42d6, averaging 155 damage. A psion on the other hand, no matter what power he uses, can dish out at best up to 5d6 damage (plus or minus 1 per die depending on some elemental powers) costing him a power point per die. This means that over the course of the day he can deal 35d6 points of damage, averaging 122.5.
This is a microcosm of the entire comparison between arcane spells and psionic powers. While there are systematic advantages to the psionics system, they are not unbalancing because they have been paired with powers that are much weaker in general than their corresponding powers (or have much higher costs to produce equivalent effects).
The 5th level wizard has enough spell slots for him to cast a spell at varying effect for 9 combat rounds during a day, 13 if you include level zero spells (note that equivalents for level 0 spells in psionics are level 1 powers, such as my light, detect psionics, and so on). To produce the same longevity for a psion at that level he must keep himself to a little less than four power points a round, or a little less than 3 power points per round if you include the level 0 spells (which in most cases aren't terribly relevant to the wizard's power). In the case of a damage comparison the psion must go with an option equivalent to the wizard's worst damage output option in order to last as long.
Now let’s take that analysis down the road another 7 levels and see how they stack up at level 12.
Our wizard now with 22 intelligence (2 more stat points and a +4 headbant of int instead of +2) has the following spell slots:
4/6/6/5/4/4/3
Power Point Equivalent (Direct Translation): 158
Power Point Equivalent (Spell Level Translation): 178
Power Points of a 22 int, 12th level psion: 162
Our wizard has the following options for damaging spells:
1st level - Shocking Grasp - 5d6
2nd level - Scorching Ray - 12d6
3rd level - Fireball - 10d6
4th level - Empowered Scorching Ray - 18d6
5th level - Empowered Fireball - 15d6
6th level - Twin Scorching Ray - 24d6
Grand Total: 356d6 - average 1246 damage
Psion's best option is a 10 point power empowered for 15d6, he can do this 13 times a day and will have 6 points left for another 6d6, totaling 201d6, average 703.5 damage.
The wizard can cast a spell in 38 combat rounds a day. To maintain the same longevity a psion would spend about 4.25 power points per power. That is to say that a 12th level, for a psion to keep going as long as a wizard, he could not use any power higher than 2nd level.
Lets take this comparison to the top and see what it looks like at 20th
Our caster and manifester now both have 30 intelligence (started at 15, +5 from levels, +4 from a tome of int, and +6 from a headband).
The wizard has the following spells per day
4/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5
Direct conversion - 447 points
Spell level conversion - 502 points
Psion's Total - 443 points
Wizard's Options:
1st level - shocking grasps - 5d6
2nd level - scorching ray - 12d6
3rd level - fireball - 10d6
4th level - empowered scorching ray - 18d6
5th level - empowered fireball - 15d6
6th level - chain lightning - 15d6
7th level - delayed blast fireball - 20d6
8th level - polar ray - 20d6
9th level - meteor swarm - 32d6
Grand Total: 827d6 - average 2894.5
Psion's Option
Empowered Energy Power - 27d6, can be done 22 times per day with 3 points left for a 3d6 energy ray
Grand Total: 597d6 - average 2089.5 damage
The wizard can cast non-0th spells 53 times, to match a psion must spend no more than 8.35 points per power, meaning they don't even get 5th level effects if they want to keep up.
Note that neither case here is optimal, you can get a lot more out of either system if you work at it.
As you can clearly see, the psion doesn't have the longevity that the wizard has, he has the ability to produce massive effect, but only at proportionate costs. As such, while the psion can get more out of every power, he really shouldn't be subject to the warlock principal, because its founding assumption is not true for him.
Finally, there are two more points to consider on the subject:
1) To nova as the OP is suggestion and attain a more powerful effect than an arcane casting counterpart requires enabling powers, feats, and equipment, most of which drain power point reserves at an alarming rate. While they do reduce the time spent in combat, they raise the resource expenditure for the psion considerably, they do not reduce it as the OP suggests. For reference, I am the author of a Guide to psionic novas on the psionics board, which spells out a number of ways to get increased effect in a round, and how much those cost. Most of them require 160+ power points to perform at high levels, which is the same as 20th level psion discharging full strength powers for 8 rounds.
2) The nova phenomenon is not unique to psionics. A 17th level wizard could very easily rattle of 5 delayed blast fireballs in a single round with only core material. If you look around and decide this is what you want to do, a wizard or socerer is actually considerably better at it than a psion is. With this in mind, even when only considering the core rulebooks and the expanded psionics handbook the statement
Quote:Originally Posted by Kuraito
The Psionic Manifesting system (namely, augmentation) allows psionics to have an average Impact unmatched by any other class.
is completely false. The average impact per power will be considerably less for a psion than a per spell impact of a wizard will be, and the average impact per round will be similar (or heavily in the arcane casters favor if you reach far enough outside of the core books for extra material). The augmentation system, while adding wonderful flexibility, actually detracts from the average impact of psionic powers because it makes you pay for all of the impact, rather than paying a spell slot and getting an impact based on your caster level.
The following is a run through of the number of points the OP has made that are incorrect because his analysis fails to consider either:
A) the strength of a given psionic power is related to its power point cost, no matter how much it is augments
b) More Impact can not be attained without astronomically increased costs and therefore having more impact actually costs more resources than it saves.
Quote:Originally Posted by Kuraito
The defense that otherwise psionics will run out of Stamina is false. Simply follow this formula. More Impact=Shorter Combat. Shorter Combat=Less Resources Used. A psionic rationing PP will save himself resources, but will cost his party resources in turn by not ending the combat sooner. In fact, the psionic might use up as much PP over a longer time than he would have “going nova,” thus wasting resources of his party for no reason.
More Impact = more resources spent on impact, considerably more. Resource conservation for a party occurs when each resource is used to its fullest potential. This means playing to the strengths of every character. If a 20th level psion and a 20th level wizard are in a party, it takes the psion 6 power points to quicken a power with 14 point strength (around a 7th level power), and then 20 points to manifest another. So for 40 points, he can get a 9th level power's worth and a 7th level powers worth. If this ends the combat then it costs 40 points to do so. If he manifests a full strength power and waits to allows his wizard friend to cast a 9th level spell, and that ends the combat, then he has spent 20 points and his wizard friend has spent the equivalent of 17. The party gets more strength in the same number of rounds for less cost by allowing each character to use their resources in an efficient manner. If it takes 4 spells/powers to win a combat, the psion can temporal acceleration for 3 rounds (15 points), manifest 3 delayed powers (6 extra points) and then manifest the 4th. Or he can quicken one, manifest another, and let his wizard friend do the same. The former costs 21 extra points, the latter the equivalent of 14.
The more party members you add, the more effective it becomes to let everyone do their thing efficiently and not try to steal the show. Everyone gets their actions in a round for free, trying to cram more into the same space in time costs resources, which reduces efficiency, and wastes resources. Making optimal uses of everyone's freely given actions to end a combat as quickly as possible within that framework is what saves party resources.
Quote:Originally Posted by Kuraito
Following this logic further, if we examine the number of PP a psionic (for these purpose, Psion and Wilder) has, then we discover that at 5th level, a psionic has enough base PP to cast 5 fully augmented powers before drained completely. The average day is supposed to entail 3-5 encounters a day. I will take the middle road and simply assume 4. At this level, a 3rd level spell will often end, or severely shorten, combat. A psionic gives up his lower level “Spells” for 5 of these a day, while a Wizard/Cleric/Druid etc. only has 1 (Again, BASE) and a Sorcerer/Favored Soul etc. has none. This gives the psionic a decided advantage with his 1.25 powers per combat, but not just any powers, but the strongest he or any other caster at that point can wield. Assuming his party members pull their own weight, a Psion can comfortably drop a single fully augmented power and let his party clean up what’s left. The Wizard/Cleric on the other hand, will have only one of these “super shots” before having to resort to weaker, lower level spells.
While true, one has to ask, how much better is the “super shot” to a spell one level below it. The answer is not much. As psions pay for every point, they maximum effect against a casters is very similar, but their secondary effects against a caster are pathetic. A 5th level wizard deals 4d6 damage with a scorching ray, a 5 level psion deals 3d6 damage with 3 power points. A 7th level wizard deals 8d6 damage with a scorching ray, a 7th level psion deals 3d6 damage with 3 power points. To use the OP's own words:
Quote:Originally Posted by Kuraito
This gap increases as psionics level up.
Moving on.
Quote:Originally Posted by Kuraito
at 20th level, a psionic has enough PP to cast 17 fully augmented 9th level powers, more then the wizards/druids 9th, 8th, 7th, and 6th level spells COMBINED and easily enough to survive 4 encounters in a day (4.25 powers a combat, remembering that these are all the strongest spells any one can cast). Meanwhile, the wizard continues to have only a token amount of 9th level spells, and again will soon have to resort to the much weaker, lower level spells. These lower spell slots have less of an impact on combat, thus drawing combat out, making him and his party expend even MORE resources, which leads to him using even lower spells, and it just keeps going.
Consider the following:
1) High level casters get more power worth in bonus spell slots than psions do with bonus power points
2) A capped 5th level spell is 15 power points worth of effect (if we use damage dealing a numerical indicator, and I happen to think its a pretty good indicator of trends, even if it isn't worth much to a high level caster or manifester). Consider that a 5th level dominate person spell is the equivalent of an 11 power point psionic dominate (which by the way 5 out 6 psions have to take a feat to get)
3) A capped 4th level spell is sometimes 15 power points worth of effect (see complete arcane's orb spells).
Such is to say that a psion's super shot is frequently less attractive than a wizard's backup plan. Certainly not as attractive as options like finger of death, circle of death, holy word and company, cloudkill, black tentacles, or any number of exceptionally powerful spells can be.
Quote:Originally Posted by Kuraito
Spontaneous Casters can step up to the plate a bit more as far as Impact goes, thanks to their additional spell slots, but they pay a steep cost, in particular the staggered growth of their next level of spells(Yes, wilders have staggered growth, but augmentation allows lower level spells mimic higher level ones in ways sorcerers can't, including DC). In addition, they are rather inflexible compared to psionics. While they do know more spells, Powers often mimic multiple Spells through augmentation, and have a much easier time getting around defenses such as Energy Resist (thank to the shifting nature of psionics elemental powers) and DC (since augmenting their powers raises the DC). Even after paying all this, psionics still have almost as many 9th level powers as sorcerers do 9th, 8th and 7th level spells combined.
Here I believe you have a confusion in terms. Spontaneous Casters can step up to the plate a bit more as far as longevity is concerned, but I had thought that was irrelevant beyond a certain point. Also, spontaneous casters can switch out lower level spells for new ones during their career, which psions are unable to do. If you want to compare average impact over the course of a day you have to decide how many rounds of combat there will be in the day. Then you have to find a point where the average impact of psionic powers and arcane spells are even. Then you understand that that is the point of balance. At less than that point, psions are more powerful. At more than that point they are less powerful. That would still ignore that a 20 point power matches up with a 6th level spell at caster level 20 more often than not, but it would be closer to correct.
Quote:Originally Posted by Kuraito
The point that spells are automatically augmented as a balancing factor is not valid for two reason. First, spells have rigid “caps” to them, which most powers don't have, allowing powers an infinite growth, while spells growth is often exceptionally finite. Secondaly, psionics get more PP then they really should. To prove this, I point out the number of spells a wizard has compared to the PP a psionic has. A wizard spells, converted to PP is (4 x 17 + 4 x 15 + 4 x 13 etc.) for a total of 324 PP at 20th level. A sorcerer does indeed have quite a bit more then this, but this power, for both of them, is stretched out among numerous slots, while it is exceptionally condensed for psionics.
Lets look at those caps:
1st level spell - cost 1 pp worth - cap 5d6 - worth 5 pp: value = 5 times what a psion pays
2nd level spell - cost 3 pp worth - cap 5d6 - worth 5 pp: value = 2 points more than a psion gets*
3rd level spell - cost 5 pp worth - cap 10d6 - worth 10 pp: value = double what a psion gets
4th level spell - cost 7 pp worth - cap 15d6 - worth 15 pp: value = more than double what a psion gets
5th level spell - cost 9 pp worth - cap 15d6 - worth 15 pp: value = 3 spell levels more than a psion gets
6th level spell - cost 11 pp worth - cap 15d6 - worth 15 pp: value = 2 spell levels more than a psion gets
7th level spell - cost 13 pp worth - cap 20d6 - worth 20 pp: value = as much as a max strength psion power
8th level spell - cost 15 pp worth - cap 25d6 - worth 25 pp: value = 5 spell levels above psionics
9th level spell - cost 17 pp worth - cap 32d6** - worth 32 pp: value = almost double its cost, 5 dice more than a 20th level psion using empower power gets
* - Unless of course we're talking scorching ray, capped at 12d6, worth 4 times what a psion gets
** - if meteor swarm is any indication
Quote:Originally Posted by Kuraito
Psionics “burn out” not because of a lack of power, but because they have just as much power as a Wizard or Sorcerer, but are able to expel it at a MUCH more rapid rate. This, in my eyes, is a TREMENDOUS strength, and gives psionics an Impact per Round greater then any other single class. Add in that, as I pointed out above, a psionic should not have stamina issues in a well formed party, since the “novas” he gets are more then adequate for a day, and if not, then more then likely the Wizard or Cleric is in almost as much trouble as he is. Fortunately, the resources he spent SAVED overall resources for the party, thus allowing them to finish this combat without his aid. The Wizard on the other hand, is probably down to 4th level spells, since his lower level spells lack the Impact to end combat as quickly as his higher level spells, thus drawing out combat, thus making him and his party expend more and more resources, round after round, long after the psionic combat has ended.
Psions “burn out” because they have to pay out the ears to match the strength of arcane casters no matter what they use to do it. This is true at basically all levels, but is most evident at high levels.
Quote:Originally Posted by Kuraito
This is one of many reasons psionics can be considered overpowered, but I consider it the main reason. Their “better then spontaneous casters” spontaneous manifesting, the incredibly flexibility of their powers, and the fact that being psionic grants a VAST array of options that non psionic characters get no part of, all contribute to make psionics a powerful, dare I say broken, addition to the game.
I firmly believe that psions are spontaneous casters the way they should have been done. I think the spontaneous casters need a shot in the arm to get to even with prepared casters as it stands right now. Furthermore, the flexibility in their powers is something that all spontaneous casters should have had in my mind. It makes them fun to play and less frustrating than dealing with some of the clunkier elements of the sorcerer, which is the selling point of a spontaneous caster in my mind.
As for options, if you think that manifesters get too many options, then tell me how I play a psion who can do any of the following effects:
Black Tentacles
Cloudkill
Forcecage
Meteor Swarm
Anything from the school of illusion
Anything from the school fo necromancy
Bigby's Hand Spells
Power Word Spells
Gate
Summoning
Planar Binding/Planar Ally
In conclusion, I think the warlock principal is ill applied to psionics, because its fundamental assumption isn't true. I think the OP's points miss the larger picture, and I strongly encourage anyone to give psionics a try and decide for themselves how they view it.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=590477Tekið af spjallborði wizards of the coast.
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